in Group Rides, Bike Trips, and Events

The trails were open on July 7,2013. I called to check, and then rode. The beginning section was still very tacky, with sections of deep mud. I did notice ruts of +6 inches formed by bikes that went around the rock crossings/paths that were built to keep riders from having to ride these drainage areas, and widening the trails. Also, the gravel used to "stake" the trail was 90% washed away. The rest of the trail was in much better shape, though still soft in some corners with mud packing the knobs of my tires. From what I saw, I think the park is doing a good job with their assessments. Calling before going out there is important. It will save time, and show an interest in off road riding at the park.
 As we have seen, the beginning section of the trail is the worst part of the system for water management. Addressing this should be a priority of the club. Maybe the IMBA folks can offer some advice. By working to resolve this issue, we can build a better relationship with the park management, as well as the DNR.
 Meanwhile we should use our own pool of wisdom to come up with some solutions. Lets brainstorm:
    1)  Close the beginning section during the wet periods, and provide alternates. Kettles does this with the rainy dew loop.
    2)  Build a path of flat rock (field stone) in the worst places. If they allow using gravel to improve the trail, would they allow stone?
    3)  Use logs, cut from fallen trees in the park, laid crosswise to the trail. While this is not permanent, it is low cost.
    4)  Your turn

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure what you mean by "the gravel that was used to "stake" the trail was 90% washed away."

From what I saw today, the gravel we put in last year in the beginner section is in great shape and was not washed away.

Can you explain, where exactly did gravel added to the trail fail?

Walt

Bottom line is that if your tires are packing mud, or otherwise picking up wet soil, you are causing trail damage. I know this may not mean much to those who don't know any better or don't care, but I would kindly ask that you start showing some respect for the people that are spending countless hours of their time so that others have a trail to ride, whether at Blue Mounds or elsewhere. Volunteering your time would be ideal, not riding on wet trails would be a great favor that is not a lot to ask.

As for the section by the trailhead that is often wet, I've discussed this at length with Walt, and there are really only two options. Turnpike the area with gravel, or close it off. I'm not certain that temporary closure is practical or enforcible. Stone, while nice, would be a great deal of work, and would have to be brought in because finding that much flat stone in Blue Mounds is impossible. Also, the idea behind turnpiking is that it gives you a dry place to ride while giving water a place to go, simply putting stone on top of black soil will just not work well, in fact it's what has been done in many areas in that section already and you can see why. For some reason I have yet to understand, there are people who ride there that avoid riding on the rocks like they carry The Plague, and would prefer riding around them and in the mud, which has the side effect of ruining the whole area.

Bottom line is that if your tires are packing mud, or otherwise picking up wet soil, you are causing trail damage. I know this may not mean much to those who don't know any better or don't care, but I would kindly ask that you start showing some respect for the people that are spending countless hours of their time so that others have a trail to ride, whether at Blue Mounds or elsewhere. Volunteering your time would be ideal, not riding on wet trails would be a great favor that is not a lot to ask.

As for the section by the trailhead that is often wet, I've discussed this at length with Walt, and there are really only two options. Turnpike the area with gravel, or close it off. I'm not certain that temporary closure is practical or enforcible. Stone, while nice, would be a great deal of work, and would have to be brought in because finding that much flat stone in Blue Mounds is impossible. Also, the idea behind turnpiking is that it gives you a dry place to ride while giving water a place to go, simply putting stone on top of black soil will just not work well, in fact it's what has been done in many areas in that section already and you can see why. For some reason I have yet to understand, there are people who ride there that avoid riding on the rocks like they carry The Plague, and would prefer riding around them and in the mud, which has the side effect of ruining the whole area.

Some turnpiking done more than a decade ago helped for several years but it was not as thorough as what we've done farther down that trail.

Two recent visits to my trail building friend in the north were insightful as far as dealing with rocks and riding around but we're without the machine and labor even if we finish our access issues with the DNR.

Bottom line is that if your tires are packing mud, or otherwise picking up wet soil, you are causing trail damage. I know this may not mean much to those who don't know any better or don't care, but I would kindly ask that you start showing some respect for the people that are spending countless hours of their time so that others have a trail to ride, whether at Blue Mounds or elsewhere. Volunteering your time would be ideal, not riding on wet trails would be a great favor that is not a lot to ask.

As for the section by the trailhead that is often wet, I've discussed this at length with Walt, and there are really only two options. Turnpike the area with gravel, or close it off. I'm not certain that temporary closure is practical or enforcible. Stone, while nice, would be a great deal of work, and would have to be brought in because finding that much flat stone in Blue Mounds is impossible. Also, the idea behind turnpiking is that it gives you a dry place to ride while giving water a place to go, simply putting stone on top of black soil will just not work well, in fact it's what has been done in many areas in that section already and you can see why. For some reason I have yet to understand, there are people who ride there that avoid riding on the rocks like they carry The Plague, and would prefer riding around them and in the mud, which has the side effect of ruining the whole area.

In regards to what i highlighted in red, I am going to venture a guess that most of those riding around the rocks places in wet spots do so because they either dont want to bounce across the rocks, are not confident in riding on wet rocks, or dont know they are supposed to ride on the rocks and that riding around them degrades the trail. My guess is that most of these people are not involved or educated enough in the world of mountain biking to even know or think about any of this. They go out and ride, and that is it. Only the people who are really into the sport (most of us on this forum) are into it enough to care about learning about this type of stuff or even finding a forum like this or getting involved with a group of people who do this.

I rub shoulders with a lot of people in the area who are capable of riding a bike, yet are completely uneducated as to the more technical aspecs of cycling (be it road or mtn or other types of riding). I have a small group of friends who are just getting bit by the mtn biking bug and i am working on teaching them about this stuff. trying to get them on the forum to read some of this info and talking with them about it while riding or during other conversations.

I'm sure i'm not the first one to say these things and probably wont be the last, but education of the general public and others involved in this sport (applies to any sport really) will be the most effective. Obviously getting them to care about and adhere to some of this is a whole different matter; but at least if they are educated, they "know better" and have to consciously decide to ignore what they know is "right" before they can do "wrong".

I'm not trying to justify their actions, just trying to shed some light on what a lot of peoples perspective is towards this sport and that they have no idea there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do what they are doing. In the U.P where i started trail riding a lot of this was common knowledge among those who used the trails. I'm finding a far different scenario down here, a lot of it has to do with the general mentality of the general public. They are very different between the two places, as well as other geographic locations/regions.

Bottom line is that if your tires are packing mud, or otherwise picking up wet soil, you are causing trail damage. I know this may not mean much to those who don't know any better or don't care, but I would kindly ask that you start showing some respect for the people that are spending countless hours of their time so that others have a trail to ride, whether at Blue Mounds or elsewhere. Volunteering your time would be ideal, not riding on wet trails would be a great favor that is not a lot to ask.

As for the section by the trailhead that is often wet, I've discussed this at length with Walt, and there are really only two options. Turnpike the area with gravel, or close it off. I'm not certain that temporary closure is practical or enforcible. Stone, while nice, would be a great deal of work, and would have to be brought in because finding that much flat stone in Blue Mounds is impossible. Also, the idea behind turnpiking is that it gives you a dry place to ride while giving water a place to go, simply putting stone on top of black soil will just not work well, in fact it's what has been done in many areas in that section already and you can see why. For some reason I have yet to understand, there are people who ride there that avoid riding on the rocks like they carry The Plague, and would prefer riding around them and in the mud, which has the side effect of ruining the whole area.

In regards to what i highlighted in red, I am going to venture a guess that most of those riding around the rocks places in wet spots do so because they either dont want to bounce across the rocks, are not confident in riding on wet rocks, or dont know they are supposed to ride on the rocks and that riding around them degrades the trail. My guess is that most of these people are not involved or educated enough in the world of mountain biking to even know or think about any of this. They go out and ride, and that is it. Only the people who are really into the sport (most of us on this forum) are into it enough to care about learning about this type of stuff or even finding a forum like this or getting involved with a group of people who do this.

I rub shoulders with a lot of people in the area who are capable of riding a bike, yet are completely uneducated as to the more technical aspecs of cycling (be it road or mtn or other types of riding). I have a small group of friends who are just getting bit by the mtn biking bug and i am working on teaching them about this stuff. trying to get them on the forum to read some of this info and talking with them about it while riding or during other conversations.

I'm sure i'm not the first one to say these things and probably wont be the last, but education of the general public and others involved in this sport (applies to any sport really) will be the most effective. Obviously getting them to care about and adhere to some of this is a whole different matter; but at least if they are educated, they "know better" and have to consciously decide to ignore what they know is "right" before they can do "wrong".

I'm not trying to justify their actions, just trying to shed some light on what a lot of peoples perspective is towards this sport and that they have no idea there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do what they are doing. In the U.P where i started trail riding a lot of this was common knowledge among those who used the trails. I'm finding a far different scenario down here, a lot of it has to do with the general mentality of the general public. They are very different between the two places, as well as other geographic locations/regions.

Time to repeat the old all levels skills building rides we at Quarry Park in the day, sometimes do at the Bike Park, and we had one at CamRock maybe a year ago. A fun time whether you shop at Baggies R Us or SPANDEX.COM.

Put on your flats and drop your seats for a night to minimize the risk and maximize the fun. Let's get Bob W out there leading us.

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for your clarification. FWIW, here's mine.

The decision for opening or closing the trail rests in the hands of the Park Manager or the DNR staff person on duty. I am never asked for my opinion and I don't know if they take my assessment into consideration when I do leave word at the park.

The decision used to be based on the amount of water coming through a drainage channel at the entry kiosk. (Seriously, they did not look at the trails at all to make a decision.) Since that was rebuilt their trail open/close measurement device went away. Kevin asked me last year for another idea of what to use that was quick and convenient. I told him that a look at the trail immediately below the trail head was some of the worst (wettest) trail in the park, and was a fair representation of the other wet areas of the trail.

A fair set of questions about this process might be: Is this a good way to make decisions about opening the trails? Is there a better way to do it? If there is a better way, would it be practical for a staff that has many other things to attend to?

-If the decision to open the trails is based on the wettest sections of trail, that means there are dry sections of trail that could be ridden without damaging them. I haven't pushed this idea to the park manager because a)I can't think of a way that the trails can be ridden without hitting a stretch that is bad like the beginner section b) It creates a situation where the park personnel have to take it on faith that the trail riders will restrict their riding to the driest trail segments.

-Is there a better way to assess the condition of the trails than just looking at the trail right below the trail head? That's difficult to answer definitively without a lot of careful thought. I'm willing to admit that the this bit of trail isn't perfectly representative. Frankly it is pretty poor trail in terms of collecting water and being slow to dry. But so is the double track down into Over Lode, the far end of the beginner section, the beginning and end of Holy Schist, and quite a bit of Pokerville. Maybe I'm not pressing the park staff hard enough, but my guess is that if I don't give them a fairly quick and easy way to evaluate the trails, the job is going to get put to the back of their work queue and maybe not get done at all on a given day.

Your point about the trails being closed more under the new manager than under Karl Heil's management is correct I believe. It may not be in line with the practice at other trails in the area. However I'm not sure how we go from those observations to having the trail open more. The times that the subject has come up for discussion with Kevin Swenson, he has emphasized to me his determination to prevent damage to the trails, and his willingness to take criticism in order to do what is right.

You may feel that I'm not being aggressive enough in pushing to open the trails and it's possible you're right. All I can say is the weather situation in the first half of 2013 is the worst I've seen in 10 years at Blue Mound, and the one time I thought the staff were wrong and checked for myself,I concluded they were, in fact, correct. Was my decision based on not being willing to get my bike dirty? I think that was a pretty ridiculous proposition, but if you really want to know, a) I am not overly concerned with how clean my bike is b) I don't worry a whole lot how dirty your bike is c) I didn't have my bike with me that day regardless, I was there to work d) the park personnel (other than Kevin) to my knowledge would not use my opinion about the trails to determine trail status without direct orders from Kevin (I've tried (in 2012), and got nothing but hemming and hawing). e) I didn't check to see if Kevin was there that day to issue orders to override his standing orders because I was of the opinion that the trails should have been closed that day.

FWIW, I want to upgrade the trails to be more weather resistant and have worked steadily on this for years ( ie Home Stretch  and Holy Schist reroutes). To say this generates little interest from the riding community is probably an understatement. "Like pulling teeth" is probably closer to the mark judging from the work day turnouts the last few years. At this time with our legal status still in limbo, it's a moot point anyway. Mostly.

Walt

PS I am of the opinion that the black soil in the most problematic trail areas is mostly leaf compost, and it has completely worthless mechanical properties when wet. Any comments from a soil science perspective?

Walt I think you hit the nail on the head for any management perspective. I know the same issues are present at Kettle except the wetter sections of trail are further out on the trail. Out there its very hard to ask someone to get out there to check the trail conditions (they mostly have to bike out) and to be honest I know for a fact that they just wait a bit after the rain and I don't think are actually really looking at the trail. and many times the "wet sections" are reported by me or a few friends that text me when they are out there....

I don't think there is a great answer, like you said without a lot of thought on how to evaluate trails for opening. Ideally there would be a way to indicate specific sections of trails being closed. Is that feasible? I don't know.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with not pushing the land managers to open the trail from your end. In my mind there is a better chance of them opening based on the number of the general public requesting the trails be open or inquiring as to their status.

From my experience I have found that many of the rangers don't really have experience with MTBs and trails and given the scope of their job its not always the priority. When I hang out at kettle the conversation always turns to the MTB trails, its easier to pick the brain of someone who isn't asking for something I guess.

I wonder if its possible to get the land manager to go up to the IMBA trail building school in August at 9 mile? It may be a shot in the dark but the DNR may consider it a training....I know some of the kettle peeps were looking at going up with me. Could help us out on a number of fronts considering the specific land manager training offered on Friday geared toward people in his position.

I feel you on the lack of interest in building and maintaining trails...obviously I'm a bit new but I find it really fun to do... Sadly the workdays for BM have been bad. I would like to offer my help whenever you need it. I live on the west side and can get out there easily. I was doing some work out at Kettle this weekend so was unable to attend. Even if you had a list of tasks someone could do on their own or with a few people I could work when others aren't around and report back to completed tasks. (maybe like they are doing at Cam Rock- I know I'd adopt a section of trail)

I'm not sure on the whole legal issue out there but it also may be something to run by some other DNR employees/rangers for guidance...What I can tell you  the number one compliant kettle has is that the MTB group refuses to do anything that isn't related to MTB. Even so far as they wont go out and fix the other side of a sign for hikers when they fix the MTB side. So if we can offer help in any other areas we may begin to develop more good will?

For soil yes, compost materials or vegetative material in any capacity will slow drying. If I remember correctly the vast majority of soil out there is Dubuque Silt Loam which is well draining but has a water capacity of around .20 in/hour compared to the soil at camrock that is more like 1.8 in/hour. They called the entire north side of the mound Sandy Stone or Stony Sand and didn't have much for rates of absorption but I would anticipate that being capable of draining more water. I think a lot of the problem with that first section is that the water really doesn't have anywhere to drain, isn't able to get sunlight or wind so it stands until it can be absorbed.(reminds me of how soil stays wet in a corn field)

Don't know if this is possible but is there any way to put up some signage educating riders on how to ride through wet spots or when to get off and walk? I was a new rider who didn't know anyone who biked. A flyer in that kiosk would've educated me....


Anyway I would like to thank you and everyone else who puts in their time and effort into our trails! Hope you all have a great day!

Patricia

The regional manager above Blue Mound called me today. Riders should know he really does have interest in what we do, and is expediting our concerns. He also deserves credit for some honesty and his keeping the trail stewards informed over time.

To answer another point I see here, I know some of our land managers are taking the DNR Trail Master Certification course which is a good thing.

Also yes to what Patricia said about the limitations of what a ranger can do but I'll give more credit to the manager who called me because we discussed ways to work more effectively.

Thanks for all the interest and recent work at Blue Mound.

I think the reason people avoid the rock crossings/paths is due to the unevenness of the rocks. That's why I suggested flat rock. They got truck loads of rock delivered to cam-rock. I do not know how that was procured. If we don't look into options, then we're stuck spinning our wheels in the mud. A barrier of tree debris could guide one to the chosen path. Kettles uses the partial trail closure option. Why do you think it wouldn't work here? The log fill option was used at Levis, and lasted for years.

I think the reason people avoid the rock crossings/paths is due to the unevenness of the rocks. That's why I suggested flat rock. They got truck loads of rock delivered to cam-rock. I do not know how that was procured. If we don't look into options, then we're stuck spinning our wheels in the mud. A barrier of tree debris could guide one to the chosen path. Kettles uses the partial trail closure option. Why do you think it wouldn't work here? The log fill option was used at Levis, and lasted for years.

Hi Mike,

Flat rocks have washed away several times in the 10 years we've been working at those crossings and there are few of them present in the first place. It is easy to underestimate what the water will do and carry.

The skills building that has been mentioned here is a really good solution rocks and obstacles because those type of riding sessions can be a lot of fun and bring people together. We do this sort of thing a lot on Tuesdays.

As far as materials, I spent an hour of my work day (that means not getting paid) working on permission to resume work there, and on next year's budget for materials. It will be great if we can come back with all that happening.

The passion and help we get is really appreciated but the data (10 years) points to needing more people helping build membership, donations and volunteers to really make things happen. Let's all work on that in the meanwhile.

Thanks.

I think the reason people avoid the rock crossings/paths is due to the unevenness of the rocks. That's why I suggested flat rock. They got truck loads of rock delivered to cam-rock. I do not know how that was procured. If we don't look into options, then we're stuck spinning our wheels in the mud. A barrier of tree debris could guide one to the chosen path. Kettles uses the partial trail closure option. Why do you think it wouldn't work here? The log fill option was used at Levis, and lasted for years.

Flat rocks actually would work in the beginner section. Wash outs aren't an issue because the amount of water flowing through the trail head area isn't enough to move them.

What do you think about this: what if we used the current rocks, but filled between them in with gravel?

-It would be way easier than pulling out the rocks that are there and moving in replacement flat rocks. IMBA in Scotland has been using "crusher files" quarry residue. I don't know where to get that, but surely we could try using gravel for an experiment?

-If it doesn't fix the problem, I'm willing to consider your ideas.

Walt