in CamRock (Moderator: TheMayor1)

My concern is people will judge trail conditions by the first section, ride further down the trail
and find conditions are poor and damage that part of the trail.

This is getting pretty granular, there will always be the chance that someones judgement does not align exactly with yours. Perhaps signage will need to be placed at multiple locations

I have been trying to ride my bike in the snow for 40 years. Fat bikes have become a game
changer for me in the snow. Do we all have fat bikes in this discussion?

Same here. I had an Elgin and Typhoon before original StumpJumper.

I share a Farley bike with my wife. If trails are solid I'll ride an AM type bike with pretty fat for 26r fat Hans Dampf tires.

Trust that I totally get the desire to mandate the right tires. Our real fat bike really is best but there are times when we can have a family ride or I can ride with non-fattie friends if it's not all fat tires. More important is where I sit with land managers, trail stewards and also on the Blackhawk board of directors. We're all better off with fewer rules.

Standardizing on signage and education that in essence says don't leave marks is probably our best bet. It will work for all seasons. Our logo and address on the signs will help.

Sharing ski trails might be a place where true fat tires would apply. That's a bit premature. We have some shared trails at Pleasant View. Our land manager there pointed out there was a day when no one wanted skis on a golf course, then a day when classic skiers didn't want to share with skate skiers, she smiles, and says she hates it when user groups don't get along.

This is getting pretty granular, there will always be the chance that someones judgement does not align exactly with yours. Perhaps signage will need to be placed at multiple locations
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I'm not trying to be difficult, I would just like a thorough discussion on the subject.

We all have the same goal.

My concern is people will judge trail conditions by the first section, ride further down the trail
and find conditions are poor and damage that part of the trail.

This is getting pretty granular, there will always be the chance that someones judgement does not align exactly with yours. Perhaps signage will need to be placed at multiple locations

Mike has a valid point here. He is not trying to be confrontational. It is all good for discussion.
The reality is that the trails along the creek, and closest to Cambridge, get lots of traffic from snowshoers and hikers. Ever since they have been built they have been hard packed. Even when we had deep snow. But the time you get 1 1/2 miles south the prairies, it is a completely different story. The hikers and snowshoers don't make it that far. This is the first year we have even been able to even keep those trails rideable during the snow.
Maybe additional signage there would help?

I'm generally against trying to ban a specific tire size as everyone should be allowed to play if the conditions are suitable. I feel the signage needs to try to explain the problem and encourage people to use good judgement.  This is what I proposed in another thread:

"Don't ruin the trail with tire ruts or foot prints"

then some more detail in a smaller font

"These trails are generously groomed and maintained by volunteers for everyones benefit.  One person can ruin those efforts for everyone by leaving deep tire ruts or footprints in the snow which freeze to become unrideable and ungroomable.  If temperatures are above freezing, and your tires or feet are leaving impressions deeper than an inch, please turn around and try again another day.  Visit madcitydirt.com if you have any questions"

"Don't ruin the trail with tire ruts or foot prints"

I do like this approach. At Pleasant View I think we can get away with banning all foot or non snow shoe traffic on the small amount of trail they have but that probably would not fly at Camrock but maybe it would?

Creekside Connector was purpose built to avoid leaving tracks on the xc ski trail so we could ride it in the winter from Cambridge to the main trail quite a few years ago. It seemed most snow shoes would use that trail and then turn around when they got to the main trail. Those who pushed on with fat bikes would eventually work in some of the newer trail. The older trail was rarely worked in. Myself and a few others tried doing some snow shoe packing out there but we were alone in our efforts.

Basically I am trying to say that this is a good problem to have compared to where things were. Also it tells me that there is a mileage cap for relying on recreational snow shoers to perform grooming efforts.

After a decent snow fall and after grooming I would guess that only snow shoes and fat tire bikes would be the only users that would not damage the trail. As the trail gets packed in more skinny tires and foot traffic might be acceptable since they will not do damage. Perhaps putting a tire size in the trail status may prevent somebody from driving out only to find they can't ride?  In addition to a don't leave ruts sign?

Basically I am trying to say that this is a good problem to have compared to where things were. Also it tells me that there is a mileage cap for relying on recreational snow shoers to perform grooming efforts.
After a decent snow fall and after grooming I would guess that only snow shoes and fat tire bikes would be the only users that would not damage the trail. As the trail gets packed in more skinny tires and foot traffic might be acceptable since they will not do damage. Perhaps putting a tire size in the trail status may prevent somebody from driving out only to find they can't ride?  In addition to a don't leave ruts sign?

Some good ideas here as well. I don't disagree with any of it.
The Tire size with the status makes sense to me.
And you are absolutely right about snow conditions. If we had any depth of snow, normal grooming will only make it firm enough for fat tires at low pressures and snowshoers.
This bulletproof stuff we have now is a different animal. Though in southern Wisco, and a warming climate, this will prolly be the conditions we have as often as we get any real snow and cold.