•  

    Blue mound this evening?


    July 12, 2013, 10:30 AM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.


    No it isn't.

    Walt has an intimate knowledge of the dirt at Blue Mound.  It doesn't have a high percentage of sand thus ruts that form stay for a long time. 

    Yeah, it sucks that we have to be so careful with Blue Mound....hell I only live a fifteen minute bike ride away but it is a necessary evil with that place.

    I only wish we had the quick draining soil of other trail systems.  I am certainly not afraid to get my bike dirty but Blue Mound is not the place for it.


    ~ I like beer and men


    Logged

    XXX

    July 12, 2013, 10:53 AM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    No it isn't.

    Walt has an intimate knowledge of the dirt at Blue Mound.  It doesn't have a high percentage of sand thus ruts that form stay for a long time. 

    Yeah, it sucks that we have to be so careful with Blue Mound....hell I only live a fifteen minute bike ride away but it is a necessary evil with that place.

    I only wish we had the quick draining soil of other trail systems.  I am certainly not afraid to get my bike dirty but Blue Mound is not the place for it.


    I think the gist, was that getting your bike muddy was a reason not to ride. Props for the trail damage comments though.

    Logged

    XXX

    July 12, 2013, 10:56 AM

    New guy (forums) could help out for a few hours tomorrow (Sat.).

    Logged

    XXX
    Gary S
    Board Member, co-Trail Steward Blue Mound SP
    Administrator

    July 12, 2013, 12:12 PM

    I'm away this weekend but will be around during the week. It sounds pretty bad out there and the trails could use all the help the club can muster.

    Logged

    XXX
    Walt Hougas
    Trail Steward - Blue Mound SP
    To Be A Man...

    July 12, 2013, 03:21 PM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Mine happens to be if you walk out of a trail covered in mud, you have done damage. But maybe that doesn't matter to you?

    Walt

    Logged

    XXX
    Tim Barber
    Board Member at Large

    July 12, 2013, 03:36 PM

    Meet at 9:00 in parking lot beneath pool by water station.

    Logged

    XXX

    July 12, 2013, 05:01 PM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Not really.  If people ride in conditions where they are "churning up the trail" and splattering their bikes in mud, the trails will get severely damaged and will soon become eroded and unrideable.


    Well his statement makes no mention of creating ruts only kicking up some dirt and not what I was referring too, if the trails are open they're open, making a mess out of my bike has never deterred me from riding, that's what was comical. I didn't realize you can only mountain bike when the trials are bone dry even if the trials are open.

    Logged

    XXX
    Tim Barber
    Board Member at Large

    July 12, 2013, 05:17 PM

    You are missing the context of Walt's statement.  IF the trails are muddy enough that you are leaving ruts and caking mud on your bike, then they probably should be closed.

    Logged

    XXX
    Walt Hougas
    Trail Steward - Blue Mound SP
    To Be A Man...

    July 12, 2013, 08:03 PM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Not really.  If people ride in conditions where they are "churning up the trail" and splattering their bikes in mud, the trails will get severely damaged and will soon become eroded and unrideable.


    Well his statement makes no mention of creating ruts only kicking up some dirt and not what I was referring too, if the trails are open they're open, making a mess out of my bike has never deterred me from riding, that's what was comical. I didn't realize you can only mountain bike when the trials are bone dry even if the trials are open.

    I didn't realize I was dealing with a stud who doesn't care if his bike gets dirty or not! My bad!

    But how do you get the mud out of the tassles and wicker basket?

    Walt

    Logged

    XXX
    singletrackminx
    Guest

    July 12, 2013, 10:55 PM

    First off I would just like to say this: I am a friend to Blue Mound. I personally know most of the employees out there, have volunteered with their friends group, donated money and even got their office gal to take up mountain biking last year. I am frustrated that I have not been able to ride my favorite place this year, and that I haven't been able to see those guys three times a week like I did before. I am sorry that my frustration with this summer was taken a bit differently than I had intended.

    In regards to developing and maintaining relationships with park employees. I understand the importance of this more than you know. My sister in law is a DNR employee at Kettle and I am very friendly with the majority of employees out there mainly because I always get roped into doing something on the trail for them.  I have seen first hand EXACTLY how nasty people get to park employees. Trust me they don't just yell when trails are closed and Kettle gets it way worse than BM. I also know that other DNR land managers who also manage MTB trails are questioning the practices employed at BM this year. No one seems to understand it and many feel that it is out of line with prior practices. Has anyone been out on the trails? No but there is always some fluctuation as to the opinion of when trails should be open and should be closed. The amount of wetness that is acceptable etc. One mans muddy is another mans tacky. Its all a matter of opinion now isn't it? Its an interesting discussion to have with DNR Land Managers at various areas, the philosophies and rational behind decisions.

    Speaking of soil science. I know I am new and most of yall don't know me from Adam but when it comes to soils I do have some experience that did not come solely from my stint as a professional mud wrestler (high clay content made me a winner...slippery). Yes, I am the weird chick that got a degree in Agriculture and does absolutely nothing with it now but, I do remember the not so mind numbing soil science classes. In particular I remember talking about the land in the area and doing some soil testing and that the vast vast majority of soil around here is silt loam. Also know that you can take a look at all of the soil profiles for our parks by logging onto the US Soil Survey website. Some great information out there, especially about the water peculation rates, degree of slops and even suitability for use of recreational trails (horse, hiking and off road bikes).

    Check it out if you're bored:
    http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

    Anyway here's hoping we can ride there soon, if not the candle lit hikes are always great in the winter and the colors in the fall are spectacular. I just hope I never again run into the raccoon the size of a great dane I met last year that sucker was cray.

    Patricia

    Logged

    XXX

    July 13, 2013, 01:39 AM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Not really.  If people ride in conditions where they are "churning up the trail" and splattering their bikes in mud, the trails will get severely damaged and will soon become eroded and unrideable.


    Well his statement makes no mention of creating ruts only kicking up some dirt and not what I was referring too, if the trails are open they're open, making a mess out of my bike has never deterred me from riding, that's what was comical. I didn't realize you can only mountain bike when the trials are bone dry even if the trials are open.

    I didn't realize I was dealing with a stud who doesn't care if his bike gets dirty or not! My bad!

    But how do you get the mud out of the tassles and wicker basket?

    Walt

    Stud? Haha, nah just not soft and sensitive about my bike possibly getting dirty while riding dirt trails through the woods, but not here to argue just cracked a little joke that obviously went over the heads of most except Aaron frink, he got it, congrats. So the rest of you can stop acting so defensive I wasn't taking shots at anyone. And to get the mud out of the tassels and basket, just ride through the bike wash, a.k.a. streams and puddles, you guys might not want to try this tho, your feet might get splashed.

    Logged

    XXX
    Walt Hougas
    Trail Steward - Blue Mound SP
    To Be A Man...

    July 13, 2013, 10:42 PM

    First off I would just like to say this: I am a friend to Blue Mound. I personally know most of the employees out there, have volunteered with their friends group, donated money and even got their office gal to take up mountain biking last year. I am frustrated that I have not been able to ride my favorite place this year, and that I haven't been able to see those guys three times a week like I did before. I am sorry that my frustration with this summer was taken a bit differently than I had intended.

    In regards to developing and maintaining relationships with park employees. I understand the importance of this more than you know. My sister in law is a DNR employee at Kettle and I am very friendly with the majority of employees out there mainly because I always get roped into doing something on the trail for them.  I have seen first hand EXACTLY how nasty people get to park employees. Trust me they don't just yell when trails are closed and Kettle gets it way worse than BM. I also know that other DNR land managers who also manage MTB trails are questioning the practices employed at BM this year. No one seems to understand it and many feel that it is out of line with prior practices. Has anyone been out on the trails? No but there is always some fluctuation as to the opinion of when trails should be open and should be closed. The amount of wetness that is acceptable etc. One mans muddy is another mans tacky. Its all a matter of opinion now isn't it? Its an interesting discussion to have with DNR Land Managers at various areas, the philosophies and rational behind decisions.

    Speaking of soil science. I know I am new and most of yall don't know me from Adam but when it comes to soils I do have some experience that did not come solely from my stint as a professional mud wrestler (high clay content made me a winner...slippery). Yes, I am the weird chick that got a degree in Agriculture and does absolutely nothing with it now but, I do remember the not so mind numbing soil science classes. In particular I remember talking about the land in the area and doing some soil testing and that the vast vast majority of soil around here is silt loam. Also know that you can take a look at all of the soil profiles for our parks by logging onto the US Soil Survey website. Some great information out there, especially about the water peculation rates, degree of slops and even suitability for use of recreational trails (horse, hiking and off road bikes).

    Check it out if you're bored:
    http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

    Anyway here's hoping we can ride there soon, if not the candle lit hikes are always great in the winter and the colors in the fall are spectacular. I just hope I never again run into the raccoon the size of a great dane I met last year that sucker was cray.

    Patricia


    Hi Patricia,

    Thanks for your clarification. FWIW, here's mine.

    The decision for opening or closing the trail rests in the hands of the Park Manager or the DNR staff person on duty. I am never asked for my opinion and I don't know if they take my assessment into consideration when I do leave word at the park.

    The decision used to be based on the amount of water coming through a drainage channel at the entry kiosk. (Seriously, they did not look at the trails at all to make a decision.) Since that was rebuilt their trail open/close measurement device went away. Kevin asked me last year for another idea of what to use that was quick and convenient. I told him that a look at the trail immediately below the trail head was some of the worst (wettest) trail in the park, and was a fair representation of the other wet areas of the trail.

    A fair set of questions about this process might be: Is this a good way to make decisions about opening the trails? Is there a better way to do it? If there is a better way, would it be practical for a staff that has many other things to attend to?

    -If the decision to open the trails is based on the wettest sections of trail, that means there are dry sections of trail that could be ridden without damaging them. I haven't pushed this idea to the park manager because a)I can't think of a way that the trails can be ridden without hitting a stretch that is bad like the beginner section b) It creates a situation where the park personnel have to take it on faith that the trail riders will restrict their riding to the driest trail segments.

    -Is there a better way to assess the condition of the trails than just looking at the trail right below the trail head? That's difficult to answer definitively without a lot of careful thought. I'm willing to admit that the this bit of trail isn't perfectly representative. Frankly it is pretty poor trail in terms of collecting water and being slow to dry. But so is the double track down into Over Lode, the far end of the beginner section, the beginning and end of Holy Schist, and quite a bit of Pokerville. Maybe I'm not pressing the park staff hard enough, but my guess is that if I don't give them a fairly quick and easy way to evaluate the trails, the job is going to get put to the back of their work queue and maybe not get done at all on a given day.

    Your point about the trails being closed more under the new manager than under Karl Heil's management is correct I believe. It may not be in line with the practice at other trails in the area. However I'm not sure how we go from those observations to having the trail open more. The times that the subject has come up for discussion with Kevin Swenson, he has emphasized to me his determination to prevent damage to the trails, and his willingness to take criticism in order to do what is right.

    You may feel that I'm not being aggressive enough in pushing to open the trails and it's possible you're right. All I can say is the weather situation in the first half of 2013 is the worst I've seen in 10 years at Blue Mound, and the one time I thought the staff were wrong and checked for myself,I concluded they were, in fact, correct. Was my decision based on not being willing to get my bike dirty? I think that was a pretty ridiculous proposition, but if you really want to know, a) I am not overly concerned with how clean my bike is b) I don't worry a whole lot how dirty your bike is c) I didn't have my bike with me that day regardless, I was there to work d) the park personnel (other than Kevin) to my knowledge would not use my opinion about the trails to determine trail status without direct orders from Kevin (I've tried (in 2012), and got nothing but hemming and hawing). e) I didn't check to see if Kevin was there that day to issue orders to override his standing orders because I was of the opinion that the trails should have been closed that day.

    FWIW, I want to upgrade the trails to be more weather resistant and have worked steadily on this for years ( ie Home Stretch  and Holy Schist reroutes). To say this generates little interest from the riding community is probably an understatement. "Like pulling teeth" is probably closer to the mark judging from the work day turnouts the last few years. At this time with our legal status still in limbo, it's a moot point anyway. Mostly.

    Walt

    PS I am of the opinion that the black soil in the most problematic trail areas is mostly leaf compost, and it has completely worthless mechanical properties when wet. Any comments from a soil science perspective?

    Logged

    XXX
    Walt Hougas
    Trail Steward - Blue Mound SP
    To Be A Man...

    July 14, 2013, 07:47 AM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Not really.  If people ride in conditions where they are "churning up the trail" and splattering their bikes in mud, the trails will get severely damaged and will soon become eroded and unrideable.


    Well his statement makes no mention of creating ruts only kicking up some dirt and not what I was referring too, if the trails are open they're open, making a mess out of my bike has never deterred me from riding, that's what was comical. I didn't realize you can only mountain bike when the trials are bone dry even if the trials are open.

    I didn't realize I was dealing with a stud who doesn't care if his bike gets dirty or not! My bad!

    But how do you get the mud out of the tassles and wicker basket?

    Walt

    Stud? Haha, nah just not soft and sensitive about my bike possibly getting dirty while riding dirt trails through the woods, but not here to argue just cracked a little joke that obviously went over the heads of most except Aaron frink, he got it, congrats. So the rest of you can stop acting so defensive I wasn't taking shots at anyone. And to get the mud out of the tassels and basket, just ride through the bike wash, a.k.a. streams and puddles, you guys might not want to try this tho, your feet might get splashed.

    Mle85301,

    OK, I believed you when you said you would ride your bike through mud and dirt. But now you want me to believe you will ride through water?

    THIS IS CRAZY TALK!!!!

    Photo proof or you are nothing but a dirty liar.

    Walt

    Logged

    XXX
    JHenry
    Technical Terrain (TTF) Crew

    July 14, 2013, 08:37 AM

    It was still too muddy to ride without churning it up and making a mess out of my bike.
    Walt

    This is a comical statement for a mtb rider to make.

    Not really.  If people ride in conditions where they are "churning up the trail" and splattering their bikes in mud, the trails will get severely damaged and will soon become eroded and unrideable.


    Well his statement makes no mention of creating ruts only kicking up some dirt and not what I was referring too, if the trails are open they're open, making a mess out of my bike has never deterred me from riding, that's what was comical. I didn't realize you can only mountain bike when the trials are bone dry even if the trials are open.

    I didn't realize I was dealing with a stud who doesn't care if his bike gets dirty or not! My bad!

    But how do you get the mud out of the tassles and wicker basket?

    Walt

    Stud? Haha, nah just not soft and sensitive about my bike possibly getting dirty while riding dirt trails through the woods, but not here to argue just cracked a little joke that obviously went over the heads of most except Aaron frink, he got it, congrats. So the rest of you can stop acting so defensive I wasn't taking shots at anyone. And to get the mud out of the tassels and basket, just ride through the bike wash, a.k.a. streams and puddles, you guys might not want to try this tho, your feet might get splashed.

    Mle85301,

    OK, I believed you when you said you would ride your bike through mud and dirt. But now you want me to believe you will ride through water?

    THIS IS CRAZY TALK!!!!

    Photo proof or you are nothing but a dirty liar.

    Walt

    Heh, Walt said dirty.....  We may have set a record for number of quotes  :o
    XXX

    July 14, 2013, 10:47 AM

    The trails were open on July 7,2013. I called to check, and then rode. The beginning section was still very tacky, with sections of deep mud. I did notice ruts of +6 inches formed by bikes that went around the rock crossings/paths that were built to keep riders from having to ride these drainage areas, and widening the trails. Also, the gravel used to "stake" the trail was 90% washed away. The rest of the trail was in much better shape, though still soft in some corners with mud packing the knobs of my tires. From what I saw, I think the park is doing a good job with their assessments. Calling before going out there is important. It will save time, and show an interest in off road riding at the park.
     As we have seen, the beginning section of the trail is the worst part of the system for water management. Addressing this should be a priority of the club. Maybe the IMBA folks can offer some advice. By working to resolve this issue, we can build a better relationship with the park management, as well as the DNR.
     Meanwhile we should use our own pool of wisdom to come up with some solutions. Lets brainstorm:
        1)  Close the beginning section during the wet periods, and provide alternates. Kettles does this with the rainy dew loop.
        2)  Build a path of flat rock (field stone) in the worst places. If they allow using gravel to improve the trail, would they allow stone?
        3)  Use logs, cut from fallen trees in the park, laid crosswise to the trail. While this is not permanent, it is low cost.
        4)  Your turn

    Logged